Air Con leak

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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Hi, Im having problems with a leak on the air con system, Its leaking from around the pipe on the aluminium joint next to the radiator top up bottle, The green tracing oil can be seen around the joint. Had someone out to look at it and has told me that it's the new R1234yf gas which is causing problems with the rubber pipe work. i doubt Mazda would want to help as the car is now 4 years old. Anyone else had problems caused by the new refrigerant ?
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Strangways
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Post by Strangways »

There was a problem with dodgy condensers on early models. Cheap Chinese copper or aluminium coils.
I don't think R1234yf affects the hoses any more than R134a does. I would ask a Mazda dealer to look at it. If it is faulty materials Mazda may well contribute towards the costs even if it is outside warranty.
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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Strangways wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:33 pm There was a problem with dodgy condensers on early models. Cheap Chinese copper or aluminium coils.
I don't think R1234yf affects the hoses any more than R134a does. I would ask a Mazda dealer to look at it. If it is faulty materials Mazda may well contribute towards the costs even if it is outside warranty.
Thanks for the reply. Phoned Mazda UK but they say there was no recall with the Air Con, But they did pick up 2 others, Passenger airbag and speed sensor, Engine can over rev or something like that, which are going to be done FOC, And they are going to check the pipework on the air con and see what happens next with regards to a warranty claim.
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st3v3cx-3
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Post by st3v3cx-3 »

Graeme,

There were no recalls on the CX-3 in the UK in relation to air conditioning problems as recalls are only done in respect of safety problems, whereas air con problems are just a damn nuisance :evil: I am aware that Mazda Japan did issue 3 Technical Service Bulletins (TSB) to Mazda dealers worldwide for manufacturing faults with the condenser, evaporator and control unit (the 3 dials bit) elements of the air conditioning system on vehicles with production dates up to late 2016. Such TSBs are internal documents to assist dealers resolving a customer reported problem with their car. I'm not aware of a TSB covering the particular problem on your car as these TSBs are not widely advertised, but would have hoped that Mazda UK could check this out. I hope you get a satisfactory FOC resolution of the problem.

For your interest, it is possible to see if there are any outstanding UK recalls on a car by checking the Outstanding Recalls section underneath the MOT History section via the Gov website https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/
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Strangways
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Post by Strangways »

As St3v3cx-3 says, it was not a recall, it was a TSB details of which were put on this site. I had my condenser changed under warranty because of a leak caused by poor quality material.
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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Thanks for all info guys.
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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Well the car has gone into the main dealer in Sunderland today to have the recall items sorted 'and' i thought the air con system leak, But was told i would have to pay them £85 diagnostics for the pleasure of finding what the problem is, Which i could have saved them the trouble (and 85 quid) if they had stepped outside so i could show them where the leak is, Due to the green tracer dye splattered all over the pipe in question, But no they wanted me to pay them first, Which i refused, So i have now sent an email to Mazda UK, Which i doubt they will reply to but, You never know...
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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Well i did get a reply from Mazda UK, After a few emails back and forth wanting more info about the car, They replied today and because the previous owner had missed one service through a Main Mazda dealer, They basically told me to Pi** off,, Which was nice of them..No surprise really.
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Wass
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Post by Wass »

One of the problems with air conditioning is that the vehicle industry really aren't all that interested in the maintenance of just one particular car accessory. On one hand there is a whole refrigeration industry which has a four year trainng programme which concentrates on nothing but refrigeration systems, their applications , maintenance , installation and development. On the other hand there's the motor industry which has incorporated air conditioning as one of many accessories on their products. As a result, many of the motor industry air conditioning professionals have simply attended a factory/manufacturers approved short form air conditioning course. What makes matters worse, they are instructed that they are factory approved and specially trained professioinals and they get very frustrated when challenged. I am ,as you might already have guessed from the refrigeration industry.
In relation to your problem: new refrigerants are designed to run with special lubricants which are usually developed in parallel with the refrigerant. The lubricants are contained within the sealed system and are installed for life. Refridgerant systems are designed around the refrigerant and so seals, compressors, condensers, evaporators are all designed with the refrigerant and it lubricant in mind. Sometimes there are faults in manufacture or assembly which mean that the refrigerant escapes. In some instances a repair may be made to existing equipment. These are rare in the auto application since they are designed to fit into very tight places and so repairs entail having to degas, stripp out the faulty component and replace it with a new part. The job doesnt stop there, the fitter then has to decontaminate the system to ensure that dust, air or moisture isnt trapped inside the system and also pressure test to ensure that the system can reliably hold pressure/ vacuum. The system then has to be regassed using the correct type and charge of refridgerant. During the work, the fitter may also opt to check that the lubricant hasnt become contaminated as a result of the leak. Contaminated lubricat can lead to future failures. Electrical compressors which are used in some modern vehicles are particularly prone to contaminated lubricant since the insulation of the compressor motor may become compromised.
It is perhaps unfortunate that vehicle refrigerant system leaks cant always be fixed as easily as squirting in a sealant and running the system. Sometimes owners can be lucky with leaks in that the leak might orignate from a threaded union which has simply worked itself loose and needs to be retightened prior to recharging but more often than not , vehicle systems are very robustly designed such that leaks are generally big issues to fully resolve successfully . Many people have systems which leak constantly and would simply need too be topped up periodically in order to ensure the air conditioning works, however, due to the F gas regulations , topping up a refrigeration system which is known to leak has been illegal in UK for many years. Many refridgeration specialists get around this problem by claiming to have found the leak at a threaded union connection and rectified it by tightening up the union and retesting and of course, there's nothing to prove that this is exactly what has happened. Refrigerant repairs are just like MOTs, as soon as the car rolls out of the workshop, there is not and can never be hard evidence of full compliance.
In short, if you have an air conditioning leak which isnt a quick fix, either empty your wallet, consider trading the car in to give the problem to somebody else or get used to being warm in the summer. This is most likely what you dont want to hear and so it is inversely proportionally unlikely that someone who is anywhere near the car sales industry will tell you this. Bad news doesn't sell many cars.
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Graeme67
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Post by Graeme67 »

Wass wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:07 am One of the problems with air conditioning is that the vehicle industry really aren't all that interested in the maintenance of just one particular car accessory. On one hand there is a whole refrigeration industry which has a four year trainng programme which concentrates on nothing but refrigeration systems, their applications , maintenance , installation and development. On the other hand there's the motor industry which has incorporated air conditioning as one of many accessories on their products. As a result, many of the motor industry air conditioning professionals have simply attended a factory/manufacturers approved short form air conditioning course. What makes matters worse, they are instructed that they are factory approved and specially trained professioinals and they get very frustrated when challenged. I am ,as you might already have guessed from the refrigeration industry.
In relation to your problem: new refrigerants are designed to run with special lubricants which are usually developed in parallel with the refrigerant. The lubricants are contained within the sealed system and are installed for life. Refridgerant systems are designed around the refrigerant and so seals, compressors, condensers, evaporators are all designed with the refrigerant and it lubricant in mind. Sometimes there are faults in manufacture or assembly which mean that the refrigerant escapes. In some instances a repair may be made to existing equipment. These are rare in the auto application since they are designed to fit into very tight places and so repairs entail having to degas, stripp out the faulty component and replace it with a new part. The job doesnt stop there, the fitter then has to decontaminate the system to ensure that dust, air or moisture isnt trapped inside the system and also pressure test to ensure that the system can reliably hold pressure/ vacuum. The system then has to be regassed using the correct type and charge of refridgerant. During the work, the fitter may also opt to check that the lubricant hasnt become contaminated as a result of the leak. Contaminated lubricat can lead to future failures. Electrical compressors which are used in some modern vehicles are particularly prone to contaminated lubricant since the insulation of the compressor motor may become compromised.
It is perhaps unfortunate that vehicle refrigerant system leaks cant always be fixed as easily as squirting in a sealant and running the system. Sometimes owners can be lucky with leaks in that the leak might orignate from a threaded union which has simply worked itself loose and needs to be retightened prior to recharging but more often than not , vehicle systems are very robustly designed such that leaks are generally big issues to fully resolve successfully . Many people have systems which leak constantly and would simply need too be topped up periodically in order to ensure the air conditioning works, however, due to the F gas regulations , topping up a refrigeration system which is known to leak has been illegal in UK for many years. Many refridgeration specialists get around this problem by claiming to have found the leak at a threaded union connection and rectified it by tightening up the union and retesting and of course, there's nothing to prove that this is exactly what has happened. Refrigerant repairs are just like MOTs, as soon as the car rolls out of the workshop, there is not and can never be hard evidence of full compliance.
In short, if you have an air conditioning leak which isnt a quick fix, either empty your wallet, consider trading the car in to give the problem to somebody else or get used to being warm in the summer. This is most likely what you dont want to hear and so it is inversely proportionally unlikely that someone who is anywhere near the car sales industry will tell you this. Bad news doesn't sell many cars.
I too came from the air con/Refrigeration industry, Although many years ago when we still used ammonia as a refrigerant, Nasty stuff.. But Mazda know there was a problem with some of the components they used, They have even extended the warranty on their cars in the United States for this very problem... As you say empty my wallet, Well thats exactly what i've had to do and pay for this repair myself, I'm not happy about it but after the reply and subsequent ''brush off'' from Mazda i doubt i would buy one of their cars again.
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